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So is this going to be a boat?
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Author Topic: So is this going to be a boat?  (Read 6150 times)
Roey
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« on: November 09, 2004, 01:12:19 AM »

Pardon my ignorance but where do we think the first SE is going to be located? Is it going to be near or in an EEZ? Or on a Continental Shelf? If so it might be a good idea to review Article 60 of the UN Law of the Sea Convention 1982 concerning "Artificial islands, installations and structures in the exclusive economic zone." Which basically states that whatever state's EEZ the installation resides in has sole authority to regulate, tax, destroy, etc.

So I'm guessing this sucker's got to be out on the open sea. Good idea. If its not attached is it then considered a really large boat? If it is then it will have to register with a certain country, and consequently fly its flag. This country will then regulate our saftey requirements etc.

The problem being that these regulations that usually apply to a ship, have nothing to do with an SE. The questions we should be asking are what sort of saftey regulations should be created for an SE, what sort would the public demand? It might be a good idea to start crafting such regulations so they can be submitted to legistlative bodies ASAP, so the technology won't have to sit idle, like many private space industries currently are because of stalled regulatory law.
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freedom cannot be laid down like so much astroturf
MonstersFromTheId
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« Reply #1 on: November 09, 2004, 03:31:00 PM »

If you do a bit of searching on this site:

http://www.niac.usra.edu/

...you'll see that there are several "flavors" of space elevators (God I hate that term).  Click on the "Funded Studies" button, then scroll down a bit to find the space elevator.
What's listed there will plunge you into a veritable labyrinth of links to various ideas. It's very easy to get lost, but lost or not, what you'll find is absolutely fascinating, and it also makes clear that a space elevator can take many forms.

A BOAT
This one is pretty much as you seem to have in mind.  The ribbons of the S.E. are anchored to either a large boat, or off-shore oil rig like structure.  The advantage of the big boat as an anchor point is that the base of the S.E. could be moved so that the S.E. could essentially dodge things in orbits that intersect the ribbons.
Near the bottom third of this page:
http://www.isr.us/Downloads/niac_pdf/chapter4.html
...you can see that at least one proposal places the anchor point just west of the Galapagos Islands.
Being completely ignorant of the implications of international laws, I'd imagine that the anchor point would be placed in international waters precisely to avoid international legal issues with regard to who has jurisdiction over at least the base of the S.E. to the extent possible, BUT,... you may be concerned with the wrong end of the S.E. in that regard, (more on that below).

A TOWER
Other proposals envision anchoring the S.E. on land at or very near the equator.  But the fairly obvious problem there is having to deal with some kind of "Panama Canal" arrangement with a host country.  It really wouldn't do to spend 40 billion to build the thing, then another 40 to 80 billion upgrading it to the point where it becomes a commercial shipping staple, and then have it nationalized by the host country.

A CHANDELIER
Actually, it isn't necessary to "anchor" the base of the S.E. to anything at all.  The ribbons hanging from a counter-weight placed just beyond G.S.O. (GeoSynchronous Orbit), would have a very strong tendency to hang straight down from the counter-weight even without any "anchor point".  Picture a chandelier hanging from a helium balloon for this one.  The "helium balloon" would be the counter-weight positioned just past G.S.O., the chain suspending the chandelier would be the ribbons of the S.E., and the "chandelier" would be a space dock that hovers just above the atmosphere at around a hundred and fifty miles up.
The idea with this one is that you'd use a "space plane", or "single stage to orbit vehicle", to take off from an airport, you fly up to the hanging space dock, latch on, transfer cargo and/or passengers to "gondolas", that then make their way the rest of the way up the S.E. without having to expend the HUGE amounts of fuel needed to get that far out of Earth's gravity well by simply using a rocket to make the entire trip.
The problems with this approach are fairly obvious.  For one thing, there's no way in hell that using a "space plane" to make the first leg of the trip is ever going to be as cheap as just using gondolas that run all the way to the ground.  Another problem is that getting a space plane to latch onto a dock that isn't actually in orbit, but rather hanging from something that IS in orbit, would be fuel intensive not to mention tough to pull off from a piloting stand point.
But the advantages are a bit more subtle.  For one thing, THIS type of S.E. doesn't necessarily have to be geosynchronous.  In fact it wouldn't even have to have an equatorial orbit.  You could put this type of S.E. in pretty much any orbit you want, even a polar orbit.  In this case the "dock" wouldn't be in anyone's airspace, it'd fly over people's airspace the way satellites do now, and more than one country's space planes could access it according to a schedule determined by the orbit chosen.  Not only that, but the orbit the S.E. inhabits could probably be changed as needed (although getting ANYTHING as horrendously massive as a S.E. to change orbits would probably be not only "a challenge", but dammed expensive in the way of the amount of fuel that would have to be expended to push something that big into a new orbit).

And of course you can see how you could play mix and match with all of the above concepts, an "airport" for example, that hangs at around 35,000 feet, placed in a NON-geosynchronous orbit where the "airport" moves at around 400 miles an hour with respect to the ground, which would be about a hundred miles an hour faster than the 500 or so miles an hour at which a jet liner cruises, making the difference in speed between an air liner and the "airport" close to the hundred miles an hour air liners travel at when landing. I.e. air liners fly up to the airport and land on it.  A bit like landing in the middle of a hurricane I'll admit, but who knows?  Something like that might still be feasible, and the real point here is that with a little imagination there are a lot more possibilities than could ever be covered in a single post.

LASTLY
As I said above, you may be looking at the wrong end of the S.E. when considering the legal issues pertaining to the placement of a S.E.  Geosynchronous orbits are a relatively crowded place already with the many commercial and governmental satellites already there.  Not only that, but a S.E., hanging from GSO, would also hang all the way down to Earth, and in doing so cross the orbits of things like the International Space Station on a regular basis, not to mention the orbits of hundreds to thousands of other satellites that aren't in GSO orbits.  So who decides who has to give up the comfy orbit their satellite has been using for the last ten years in order to make way for the S.E.?
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publiusr
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« Reply #2 on: November 10, 2004, 12:03:35 PM »

This is why I suggested linking the space elevator project with Norm Nixon's Freedom supership. At the ship-world forum one loudmouth looked at space elevators (and the excitement they could give large sea structures) as being irrelavent to his topic of large ships. (sounds familiar) We are going to have to lose the myopia if we want to interest more people in the projects of the future.

Thus my post:

Here is the link to the Norm Nixon supership project (Freedom):

www.freedomship.com

And a page rather critical of it, but with some positive feedback:
http://patrifriedman.com/projects/i...reedomship.html

I would suggest to you that a picture of SS1 or some other Rutan-like craft landing on that structure with a space elevator above it may excite interest in his otherwise waining dream. Nixon has a string of contacts--and could share them with you, since a space elevator could help him sell his product--and his dream may make yours possible. If such a craft also has huge turbines to generate electricity from below--you have an even broader base. Large naval structures are popular now.

Remember--have interests in more than just one area.

www.ship-world.com Take a look at the Freedom ship forums.

I seem to remember a large floating logistics base--a giant aircraft carrier of FREEDOM's size:

Give these guys a call--they may love to be remembered...
http://ctsm.umd.edu/pdf/technicalre...nstructionI.PDF
http://path.berkeley.edu/MOB/Docs/W...er/OPTIONS.html

Dead Links:
http://www.bwxt.com/Products/mob-bwx.html
http://www.bwxt.com/Products/mob-bwx.html#JMOB
www.mtiresearch.com/mob-comp.html

This link is not dead--and has telephone numbers
http://www.ship-world.com/utbb/Forum2/HTML/000062.html

Don't forget these guys

www.kvaerner.com

If cables are what you need--you may try to contact these guys who do business for Kvaerner: www.cordscable.com/customers.htm
If you can convince them nanocables will sell--they may use their pull to get the kvaerner folks to talk to you about a platform.

They are working on icebreakers as we speak. Just the thing to tow a SEA DRAGON super HLLV to launch point as well, I might add.

Here is my post at ship-world:

http://www.ship-world.com/utbb/Forum2/HTML/000082.html

Notice how one of the replies comes from an individual who uestions how space elevators are 'relevent' to large sea structures. Get overly focused--and you lose possible supporters.[/SIZETake a look at this man's model work for Hibernia:
http://www.starshipmodeler.net/cgi-...p=283099#283099

www.nostromobuilders.tk
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Greg Broomfield
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« Reply #3 on: November 10, 2004, 03:10:43 PM »

Quote from: publiusr
This is why I suggested linking the space elevator project with Norm Nixon's Freedom supership. At the ship-world forum one loudmouth looked at space elevators (and the excitement they could give large sea structures) as being irrelavent to his topic of large ships. (sounds familiar) We are going to have to lose the myopia if we want to interest more people in the projects of the future.
Do you really think the Freedom ship would be prepared to spend its entire life tied to an SE?  The only places it could move to dictated by the dodging of Space Debris?  I don't think so.
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publiusr
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« Reply #4 on: November 10, 2004, 03:32:43 PM »

An SE offer might be the only way it gets built at all.
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Greg Broomfield
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« Reply #5 on: November 10, 2004, 03:58:26 PM »

Quote from: publiusr
An SE offer might be the only way it gets built at all.
I don't see why, they have such different requirements.  The SE will be limited to locations that the SE has to be due to the need to be near the Equator and in areas of low weather extremes, lighting etc and it will want to move exactly where it wants to move to in its efforts to avoid being hit by debris.

On the other hand, I would expect that the Freedom ship would not want to spend its entire life as an SE anchor.  I'm sure it wants the "freedom" to go where it wants to go.  I would also expect that the people that want to be on a "Freedom Ship" would probably object to the high level of military presence and security that will have to go with an SE anchor.

Now if you want to talk about putting a Freedom ship up in space, that would be relevant to an SE discussion, but I think the Freedom ship you are talking about would want to be more than just an anchor.
« Last Edit: November 10, 2004, 04:01:42 PM by Greg Broomfield » Logged
publiusr
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« Reply #6 on: November 12, 2004, 09:47:14 AM »

I think they might compromise if an SE is offered as a selling point. Charging for rides in the elevator itself is a selling point--and nothing says that the cable could not be moved to another anchor.

How to sell the SE as a part of a larger package (power gen. platform, FREEDOM ship, etc.) Might be a key to success.
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Dorian Gray
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« Reply #7 on: July 05, 2005, 06:50:17 PM »

Maybe a Freedom Ship-like structure could serve as the anchor, but not the Freedom Ship itself.  The platform could serve as a prototype for the ship, though.
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publiusr
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« Reply #8 on: July 06, 2005, 08:49:34 AM »

That is also a possibility. I guess what made me interested in Freedom Ship is its sheer size--plus the fact that it has a nice runway uptop, where a plane could taxi right up to the SE--to at least ease the first leg of the journey.

Otherwise some of the same problems we have with trying to supply oil rigs would also apply to SE servicing. That is also why I would love the island of Sao Tome to at least be a base for an SE not far off shore-so that open ocean time is reduced. Being 'under' the hump of Africa also at least blocks some wave action from the north. Placing SE out in the Pacific where waves can get going over a fetch of water might not be the best idea.

There has been talk about thre JMOB--a floating base I mentioned earlier in the post above.

I think the key to success is a dual-use philosophy, whereby others with interest in large platforms handle everyday logistics, and we need only tend to the SE side without also having to become sailors, longshoremen, etc.

If the other partner should go under financially--we pick the platform up for a song--and it is altready built.
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neil
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« Reply #9 on: June 02, 2007, 06:16:44 PM »

The boat may be quite large, so it likely needs to be registered in some country. In my opinion: several sizes of climber will be at standby to launch as the transients on the ribbon and the projected dogding of space junk and satellites dictates when and how much mass can be launched. We may also want more than one type of repair and recovery climber, heliocoptor and rocket standing by. We need a radar set and and a laser for the first few kilometers of climber assent on the anchor ship. We need 100 kilometers of ribbon on a reel so that ribbon can be winched in or out when expedient. The ribbon may resist being dragged horizontally at high speed in rare situations, so the anchor ship needs a reserve of power for such rare occurences. Rapid reel in, and the laser, will require conciderable power.   Neil
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publiusr
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« Reply #10 on: June 23, 2007, 12:38:36 PM »

I think Sao Tome would be a good nearby island.
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Donald Rennie
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« Reply #11 on: August 07, 2007, 08:50:18 PM »

I think Sao Tome would be a good nearby island.

I think it would be more feasible to build a combination tower-tether, and move the middle of the SE to avoid collisions with space junk.

I don't think it would be feasible to build a 200km high tower on Sao Tome, the base would take up the whole island. However I don't think Gabon and the Republic of the Congo would mind if a mountain on their border, were used to support such a tower.

These countries may not be very politically stable, but a make work project of this magnitude would surely help stabilize them, and a project as internationally important as this one would generate a lot of support.

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publiusr
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« Reply #12 on: November 09, 2007, 01:26:44 PM »

Put this and/or mining options at the base?
www.poseidonresorts.com/poseidon_main.html

It would look nice below the SE...
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